shop steward.
workers here doing to help Solidarity.
Do you think Solidarnos might have been better able to resist martial law if it had been more tightly organised at the expense of being less democratic?
MG: That was a key problem for us, one we discussed a lot but which was never really resolved. No Solidarnose would, in some ways be more effective and stronger today if it had been less open. All information was available to anyone who wanted it. There was never a question of any secret talks or secret decisions.
But, on the other hand, the very principle of Solidarity, its reason for existence, was to do away with secrecy and the absence of information. The question really was what was more important for Solidarnosc -ciples or short-term effectiveness. We were for principles. That was the most important thing, because an idea can never be destroyed.
The police are so effective. After all, they hounded Trotsky for 20 years Lill they got him. They can penetrate and destroy any organisation in the end. But the idea survives. So I think the way we went about it was right.
How is Solidarnose fighting back? MG: Well, most of the information we have has appeared in the media. But 1 should say that we Poles are underground specialists. We have a lot of experience in this field, It will be very difficult for the government to completely crush Solidarnosc.
Was there much the takeover organising resistance to such a move? Solidarity activists Piotr Kozlowski and Marek Garztecki recently spent nearly a week in Sotland, meeting representatives of the labour movement to build support for Soliarity. Kozlowski was a senior steward at the Ursus tractor plant near Warsaw; Garztecki a journalist with Warsaw Radio and also a During their visit, Piotr and Marek gave a lengthy interview to DES TIERNEY and MARTIN METEYARD for Socialist Challenge. This week we print their comments on the situation in Poland since the military crackdown and what they would like to see doubt its prinPK: The problem was that we were preparing more for a Russian invasion. So the instructions sent out were based on a resistance to Hitler in 1939 destroying removing street names, turning round direction signs, and so on.
We did martial law, but we never expected it to be so severe. One of Jaruzelski's first policies never shoot Poles foolish enough to believe him. didn't workers by simply killing them. discussion never believed the Polish Army would about act this way. We expected that martial law would break down, and then the Russians would come in Did you expect more support if the Army® MG: Definitely. But the Army itself was not used very much. The time it took gests that units, from one city to the next. The main instruments of the repression was the paramilitary force, ZOMO, with its tanks and machine guns. Today the Poles call them the Gestapo.
What other means did they use to crush resistance?
MG: Above all, they struck at the centres of the movement. exchanges were cut off, two hours wave radio sets (which ment.
three year jail sentance movement here to Solidarity? wishes alone.
out from include the possibility of First, they was that Poles would and we were war; believe they would crush the tivities in Poland.
Second, up, to suppress the resistance sugthey just used the crack moving them round the country plies organised basıs through dividuals.
risk playing Reagan and Thatcher.
with trade unions.
Telephone before the military opcration began They confiscated all CB and shorthad to be licensed), all duplicators (also subject to licensing) and in some cases even typewriters and film and video equip- Our There is a total ban now on taking photographs in Poland. It carries a Our distorted by What are you asking the labour do to help PK: No PK: The first thing we want you to bureaucrats Scotland?
went understand is that the Solidarity trade union working group in London is not acting on its own intuition and get bulletins, messages and instructions smuggled Warsaw, Wroclaw and what they want from trade unions in the West is quite clear:
should support OHH four demands: for the freeing of all of the state or union property confiscated by the junta, the possibility for Solidarity to continue its acthey should break off relations with the Polish state union, never consider having relations with any dummy Solidarity that may be set and cut their links with other trade unions which fail to condemn the deprivation of workers' rights in Third, they should consider refusing to handle imports and exports until our basic demands are met. From this we exclude medical and food sup on a humanitarian the Church or inSome people would say that you into the hands MG: Our approach is that we always try to deal not with governments but We don't ask governments to do things for us because they are not our natural part- same. ners. Of course. people like Reagan and Thatcher will try to use the situa tion to their advantage. But these people have nothing to do with us, we don't even speak to them.
approach anyone who claims to want to help us is always: what do you think about free trade unions and workers being killed?
aims are constantly being these people. stance, let me ask Piotr a simple question: could you find one worker in your factory who is in favour of a return to capitalism?
MG: Trade unions are working class organisations, we just don't understand people who can go on asking questions like this. Of course we want democracy but a union we set up and we control, not one handed out by the PK: People here must recognise that we don't judge them by the name of their party - Conservative, Labour even Communist The cuestion is: do they oppose the killing of workers, do they really stand for workers rights That's the touchstone for us as to their real intentions. Living in Poland makes you immune to words - only deeds are important.
Finally, is there anything you'd like to say about your reception in MG: It was always the same when we STORE and talked directly to the workers- there were never any silly questions, they never questioned our intentions. They knew who we were and what we stood for The problem starts when you're talking not to workers but to those who claim to represent them. We feel sometumes that these are the, same brand of people who used to run the state trade union - the way they taik, the same kind of attitudes. It is incredibly arrogant when such people claim to know better then us how well off we really are They think they know best what's good •Tor Ine workers which means that really they despise them.
We were much less taken aback than you by the hostile reception from the convenor at Rolls Royce, Illington. We've met such people when they've visited Poland. And we know what goes on. They're whisked round in limousines to tour factorics, the canteens are restocked with chocolate and other things we haven't seen for years, all at cheap prices — even the grass is painted green! They never see the country as it really is.
Such people want to believe that the workers hold power somewhere in the world and all they have to do is close their eyes a little and believe And of wur tacy saw was genute.
course the prize for doing so is to be invited back next year.
It was a real contrast to meet a representative of the Liberation Front UNCOOT immediately greeted us by saying that we were fighting for the same things It doesn't really matter so much who we are fighting, as for what -for our freedom. The oppressors have many faces, they go under many guises and they bear many names. But the threat to us as workers is just the Socialist Challenge 4 February 1982
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