Despite many other differences the mode of roduction in both countries is the same. You vould not call Mao's China a capitalist or stateapitalist society. That is why tasked you about LR: For me the cultural revolution was imporant. I don't know how I would characterise china. It's difficult for me. But China is not ussia. So when I ask you about Russia you houldn't ask me about China.
A: Well my views are not so important... 'IR: No. Your views are important because ey are the views of an organisation to which I ave 17 years of my life A: On a related subject, could I ask you what is our attitude to Fidel and the Cuban Revolution. the revised edition of "The Black Jacobins' ou make what I think is a rather attractive comarison between Fidel Castro and Toussaint "Ouverture.
Would you care to expand on that?
LR: There was a great revolution in the Caribean in the heat and the excitement following the rench Revolution and in the wake of the crisis f the imperialist world today there emerged in he Caribbean another great revolution, the luban Revolution.
You ask me about Fidel. There are two things hich come to mind. He made the revolutior irst and then the Russians helped him. They ere not for the revolution before it was an acmplished fact.
Bưt secondly there are things about Fidel hich I read which I'm not too happy about. But now another thing which for me is very imporIf it were not for Fidel's army, Angola would ow be under the control of the South African hites. The Cuban intervention in Angola was a remendous event in the history of the world. I nink Fidel is doing the best under the cirA: The Black Jacobins' has been regarded by ne revolutionary left as a classic for a long time, ut it must have been galling for you that because f your politics it did not receive a wider recogniToday it is being acclaimed in much wider ircles. To me it has been obvious since I first ad the book that it was tailor-made for an epic n. Not a Hollywood epic, but a Peoples Epic. hy has that never happened?
LR: Many people have talked about it, but here is the money to come from? A lot of peole say that, and an American film-maker is stuying the possibility today.
I am prepared to write a film script provided e can find a capable film-maker and the nance. But most of them are not too happy bout the idea of making a revolutionary film. A: What about the Cubans? They have a collecon of very talented and very radical filmakers. Don't you think they might be prepared ) collaborate on a film?
LR: There was talk at one stage of translating le book into Spanish by the Cubans. But the ook has a few sharp attacks on the Russian. gime and when they reached those pages they stopped the translation.
They were saying before they reached those two pages that the book would be out in one or two months. But they stopped TA: When I heard you talk many years ago in London, you polemicised sharply against StokeAre your views on race and class the same or have you altered them in some way? At that time you were extremely emphatic that class was the ultimate arbiter.
CLR: I still believe that. I have not shifted, but it would be a great mistake to ignore the race question or the racial dimension.
I am on the side of all those who are using their racial subordination as a means of getting together because in that way they can make as powerful an impact as possible. But for me the class question is still the dominant and crucial OLIC TA: These days there is a lot of talk about the 'crisis of Marxism'. Have you ever seriously questioned your Marxism or doubted its use as a method of investigation?
CLR: Never, never! In 1932 I came to this country for the first time. I looked around. I was very well read in historv and literature had musica interests: Bach, Beethoven and known to me. But my thought had no order about it.
It was after reading Marx and Lenin and studying Trotsky's polemics against Stalin that I began to develop a coherent view of the world. In 133 came Hitler and 'socialism or barbarism appeared the only alternatives.
In the 1914-18 war capitalism killed 8 million men, then it went to pieces in 1929 with the depression and as the economic recovery took place fascism was triumphant in Germany, Italy, and, a few years on, in Spain, and then came the Second World War. Today they don't go to war because it would be suicide given the power of nuclear weapons.
But I have no confidence in capitalism. None whatsoever. I have never entertained any serious doubts about Marxism over the last five decader of my life. Capitalism offers nothing that I want.
But I want to come back on the Soviet Union. You lot still stand by the 'workers' state' thesis. I see that Mandel still keeps on writing about it.
TA: Well, I'll give you my views on the matter which may or may not be orthodox. I don't regard the Soviet Union as a socialist state.. CLR: But a workers' state?
TA: Yes, but a workers' state which is utterly degenerated and deformed, has to be overthrown and totally re-organised from top to bottom. My basis for that is the objective role of the USSR in world politics.
There is an objective tension between the USA and the USSR, which is based on the fact that capital is not allowed to circulate in the USSR as a commodity. Neither foreign capital nor any other form of capital.
Simply in order to prevent that happening the Soviet bureaucracy has to be on its guard and when accommodation fails or where it sees a possibility of scoring points at the expense of imperialism, it moves You have said yourself that the Cuban in ervention in Angola was a 'tremendous event But without Russian that intervention would have been impossible. I repeat, impossible. CLR: But I understand that when Fidel accepted the MPLA's invitation to Angola he did so without the knowledge of the Russians. That is what I heard.
'BROTHERS and friends. I am Toussaint L'Ouverture, my name is perhaps known to you. have undertaken vengeance.
want Liberty and Equality to reign in San Domingo. I work to bring them into existence. Unite yourselves to us, brothers, and fight with us for the same cause, etc.
*Your very humble and very obedient servant '(Signed) Toussaint L Ouver'General of the Armies of the King, for the Public Good.' From "The Black Jacobins' TA: That is possible, but 1 find it difficult to believe that he could have sent the troops without lengthy consultations with the Russians. motives were probably very different, but I don't believe that the Russians were not involved.
It is also the case that in the months preceding significant event. between the USA and the USSR.
you have to defend them.
Mozart were forward!'.
advance. 'Forward, forward!' glory.?
little mad, both white and black.
From 'The Black Jacobins' frontation between bureaucracy we are with the masses. that we refuse to remain neutral.
the military strength tempt to overthrow Fidel.
debate.
weapons and Russian Canada? and it was also participatory game.
not articulate it, an artistic event.
sport is the new opium of the masses? Their the fall of Saigon the supply of Soviet weapons (especially the rocket launchers) was not an in- so.
CLR: But the Chinese gave weapons too...
List view.
TA: Sure, in the early stages in particular. But the FI called for a united front of Moscow and Peking to defend the Vietnamese revolution. It is when one sees the Soviet Union in a global context that one cannot but be forced to the conclusion that there are some fundamental differences CLR: Viv CLR: That I can accept, but can we ask people to sacrifice themselves for Russia as one did in the day of Lenin? If you are supporting them then CLAIRVEAUX, the Mulatto, was in com- dary mand, and with him was Capois Death, a could be negro officer, so called on account of his bravery. From early morning the national army attacked. In the afternoon under a crossfire of musketry and artillery Capois led the assault on the blockhouses of Bréda and Champlin, shouting 'Forward, The French were strongly entrenched and drove off the blacks again and again only to see them return to the attack with undiminished ardour. A bullet knocked over Capois' horse. Boiling with rage he scrambled up and, making a gesture of contempt with his sword, he continued to The French, who had fought on so alIs many fields, had never seen fighting like this. From all sides came a storm of shouts. 'Bravo! Bravo!'. There was a roll of drums. The French ceased fire. A French horseman rode out and advanced to the bridge. He brought a message from Rochambeau. "The Captain-General sends his admiring compliments to the officer who has just covered himself with so much Without a shot fired from the blacks, the horseman turned and rode back to the blockhouse and the battle began again.
The struggle had been such a nightmare that by now all in San Domingo were a TA: But defend whom against what? In any conmesses and the It is only when there is a confrontation with imperialism of their own class. But I disagreed. I don't think I played cricket and football till I left the Caribbean and cricket has always meant a great deal to me. It has never interfered with my MarxAs to why it never caught on in Canada, I think the answer is simple: climate. You can't have a season in Canada. That's the chief reason. TA: Whom would you regard as the most attractive cricketer today?
Richards. The way he plays is something new. I used to think that George Headley was the greatest, better than Sobers or the three W's, but this boy Richards is a marvel.
His batting is something we haven't known batsman altogether. The way they drop the ball on the off stump or just outside and he keeps on hitting it through the on-side fieldsmen to the on bounThe precision of the shot is such that he playlig billiards. I've never seen anything like it.
A: Do you regret any part of your life. Is ther anything you would have done differently CLR: No. I have enjoyed reading books, which is what made me a Marxist. nO: And what lies ahead? What are your plans CLR: I am writing my autobiography in Trinidad and I will go back and finish that. After that I would like to go to Florence and spend two or three weeks there.
TONGE of that city. Michelangelo, Raphael, Leonardo da Vinci... It is a beautiful city. I'm a little bit scared as it's now controlled by the Italian CP (laughs), but I doubt they'll do anything to me now.
As the Test match started the interview ended, with CLR grumbling about the inclusion of Boycott in the English side. If he were an English selector: ' would get rid of Boycott. He just demoralises the rest of the team. Pick two new openers and let them play in all five tests. They'll ruin one or two, but they'll be good at the end.' ALISON & BUSP C. L. R. James